Transcript of podcast episode 64
Josée Arnold (JA): Welcome to "Discover Library and Archives Canada: Your History, Your Documentary Heritage." I'm your host, Josée Arnold. Join us as we showcase treasures from our vaults; guide you through our many services; and introduce you to the people who acquire, safeguard and make known Canada's documentary heritage.
With the creation of the A.V. Roe Canada company following the Second World War, Canada became a leader in the aerospace industry. Setting up shop in Malton, Ontario, at the former Victory Aircraft plant, A.V. Roe developed the C-102 jetliner and the CF-100 Canuck, the first Canadian-designed military fighter aircraft. In 1953, at the height of the Cold War, the Royal Canadian Air Force (the RCAF) commissioned A.V. Roe to design a new plane: a supersonic jet that could engage and destroy enemy interceptors before they reached their targets in North America. That jet, intended to serve as the RCAF's primary interceptor, was the Avro Arrow.
Although the Arrow was one of the most advanced aircraft of its era and had the potential to establish Canada as a world leader in scientific research and development, the project was ultimately cancelled. This eventually put A. V. Roe Canada out of business and its highly skilled engineering personnel scattered.
During this two-part episode, we will be highlighting the importance of the Avro Arrow in Canadian history by discussing its evolution—from dream to dust—and delving into the many theories as to why the Arrow project was cancelled. All this will be done through the examination of the extensive material in LAC's collection.
[Audio clip from
Supersonic Sentinel]
“This is the Avro Arrow, Canada's entry into the supersonic era. Within the short span of four years, the Arrow was brought from initial design to the start of the development flight program. So vast was this project, that during the next 20 minutes we can do no more than give a series of impressions of the planning and hard work that was required…”
JA: Our podcast episode will be a bit longer than 20 minutes, as we will give you examples of the planning and hard work that was required, but also, reasons for the project's cancellation. Keep listening!
By the way, that was a clip from Supersonic Sentinel: The Story of the Avro Arrow, a short film from LAC's film, video and sound archive. We will be playing more of it throughout the episode.
Palmiro Campagna (PC): Just to start off my name is Palmiro Campagna. I've been working with the Department of National Defence for 34 years, but retired in 2015.
JA: That was Palmiro Campagna. He is the author of three books on the Avro Arrow, the most recent being The Avro Arrow: For the Record, released in 2019. You may recognize his name and voice from our two-part episode on the UFO Falcon Lake incident which we put out in May 2019. Palmiro is no stranger to Library and Archives Canada, being a regular visitor to the research and reading rooms at 395 Wellington in Ottawa.
Throughout this two-part episode, we touch on the “classification” and “declassification” of documents. LAC does not declassify documents per se, but rather reviews and releases previously restricted archival files in accordance with the Access to Information Act and the Privacy Act. In our words, we would say we "open them up for consultation." These files may still contain partial redactions using legislated exemptions that protect personal and sensitive information. Thanks to Palmiro, we now have a plethora of Avro Arrow related documents that have been opened and that allow us to uncover its cancellation and destruction.
We asked Palmiro how he became interested in the Avro Arrow.
PC: My interest in the Arrow actually stems from when I was a little kid. I have a vague memory of actually seeing the Arrow in flight. I would have been about four or five years old at the time. Over the years, I always wondered what had happened to the Arrow. Could never find much information until about the late seventies when some of the first books started to appear with information.
Then in 1979, there was a documentary that was supposed to be aired on television, which ended up getting postponed because [there] was an election coming up and they said it could impact the election. That intrigued me as to what the heck was going on. When I ended up here in Ottawa, I decided to start checking with the [National] Archives to see if there were any documents on the subject. I had read that everything had been allegedly destroyed. I wanted to find out for myself. One thing led to another…
JA: Documents about the Arrow here at LAC? Yeah, we have a few! Later on in this episode, we will be talking to LAC employees Kyle Huth and Andrew Elliott to find out just what we have in the collection that pertains to the Avro Arrow and A.V. Roe, the company that built it. Speaking of A.V. Roe, we wanted to know how big the company was when the Avro was cancelled in 1958, and how many Canadians it employed. Palmiro tells us:
PC: Just to back up, just a touch, A.V. Roe Canada Ltd came into being just after the war when the government decided that Canada should design and develop its own aircraft.
By 1959, actually, when the Avro Arrow project was cancelled, the company had grown to be the third-largest company in Canada, behind Canadian Pacific Railways and the Aluminum Company of Canada, I believe. It consisted of a number of different subsidiaries. The two that were involved in aircraft design were Avro and Orenda. Avro was the portion responsible for designing the fuselage of [the] aircraft, in this case, the Arrow, and Orenda was responsible for engine design and development.
As the third-largest company, they employed between the two, Avro and Orenda, some 14,000 people, all of whom were fired the afternoon that the cancellation of the Arrow was announced in Parliament. Overall, about 25,000, so an additional 11,000 people, were affected. They were from different subcontractors and whatnot. Some estimates put the number at 100,000 because there were over 650 subcontractors engaged in the Arrow. Don't know if all of those people were fired, but if they were working specifically on the Arrow project then there's probably a good chance that they were.
By 1962, this third-largest company ceased to exist, which is why I would think that a lot of people, young folks especially today, would have never heard of A.V. Roe Canada. They think of Bombardier when you talk about jet design, et cetera, in Canada.
JA: We asked Palmiro what A.V. Roe did between the cancellation in 1958 and the company ceasing to exist by 1962.
PC: In the intervening years after the cancellation, they tried to undertake a few other developments, one of which was the so-called flying saucer, better known as the Avrocar. This was a project that started earlier, in 1955, I believe. It was being funded by the United States Air Force and the United States Army, not Canada.
Unfortunately, that project didn't really go very far. They developed a couple of prototypes, but what was happening was—the thing looked like a circular flying saucer; [it's] what it was—but it was too unstable. After getting above three feet off the ground, it would start to wobble incredibly. The interesting thing about it is that if they had put an actual skirt around it, they would have invented the hovercraft. This is back in mid-fifties, when they were experimenting with this thing initially. They continued on to about '61 with the Avrocar before the project was finally cancelled.
They tried getting into developing cars, but that didn't really work out very well. They even got into aluminum boat manufacturing. In fact, I think there's still one or two of their boats kicking around, but that didn't take off either. Basically that was the end of Avro. Orenda, on the other hand, continued producing engines. They ended up being bought out by a company, I believe called Magellan Aerospace. The name Orenda eventually disappeared.
JA: What other aircraft did A.V. Roe develop during its history?
PC: When the company was first established in 1946, they were given two projects. One was to develop a commercial jet aircraft and the other was to develop a military aircraft. The civilian aircraft or commercial aircraft was known as the “jetliner.” From what I can tell, the term jetliner was actually suggested by Avro Marketing. They were not able to copyright the name because the jetliner, like the Arrow, never went into production. It's a story in and of itself. It was the first commercial intercity jet to fly in North America in August 1949. It was the second jet to fly in the world.
It was beaten out by the British Comet, just a couple of weeks before its flight. The difference between the two was the Comet was transoceanic, meaning [it could fly] from Britain to Canada say, whereas the jetliner, as I said, was intercity. Interesting thing about the jetliner: it flew from 1949 to 1956. It was being used basically as a corporate jet for Avro. Then it was destroyed in the same way that the Arrow, eventually, was destroyed.
The cockpit of the jetliner sits at the [Canada] Aviation [and Space] Museum. The real point here is that, from 1949 to 1957 actually, there was nothing like it anywhere in North America. It was a jet and everybody else was flying turboprop and propeller-driven aircraft. So when you talk about advances or leads in technology, the jetliner was, in my view, much more of a tragedy than even the Avro Arrow because we were that far ahead in that development.
Interesting thing about the jetliner: rumours were that it had technical flaws, it was a poor design and all of those kind of things, similar to the comments made about the Arrow at some point. But Jim Floyd, the guy who actually designed the jetliner, was awarded the Wright Brothers Medal by the United States for excellence in aeronautical aerospace engineering, specifically for the jetliner design. There were also suggestions that, well, it had to be cancelled because nobody would purchase the jetliner, similar to what they were saying later about the Arrow—there were no buyers. Well, in fact, there were people who were interested: National Airlines in the United States. Howard Hughes, who owned Trans World Airlines at the time, was really trying to purchase the jetliner [but] didn't get very far.
Those rumours persisted but, thanks to the National Archives, when I came here and started digging, I actually found a memo, which I don't think had seen the light of day from the day it was first written to the day that I got it declassified. That memo was from our joint staff in Washington to our Minister of National Defence, dated 1951, I believe. I've reproduced it in my books. In there, it says that the United States Air Force, with the support of all the Air Force Commands in the US, wanted to purchase 12 jetliners. But they had approval to purchase. It wasn't just an interest, they had approval to purchase.
That letter, like I said, never made it to Avro. Don't know what happened to it. I can't find the paper trail from the document that it's in. Now, why was the United States Air Force interested? The jetliner was taken to Wright Patterson Air Force Base on a demonstration run. The military pilots there were allowed to fly it the way they would their other fighter aircraft, which were subsonic at the time. The jetliner, of course, is subsonic, and they loved it. In that same letter, it says that they wanted to purchase it for training purposes, potential refueling purposes, transport, et cetera. There were a number of reasons listed, but 12 would have given them a really good kickstart. Then with Howard Hughes coming in, had he been allowed to purchase—he was interested in some 30 or 37 of these aircraft—that thing really would have taken off.
But decisions were made in Canada that they wanted Avro to focus on the CF-100, supposedly for the Korean war effort, which was occurring at the time, and they ordered all work on the jetliner stopped. Only the one was built. There was a second prototype, but it never flew, I don't think. No, in fact, it did not. That was the end of it. That single jetliner still flew, as I said, until 1956. The point being the rumours that nobody would buy it were completely unfounded, based on the documentation that [was] uncovered in the [National] Archives.
Now, subsequent to the jetliner, as I said, they were designing the CF-100, which they did [build]. They produced over 600 of those. It was deemed one of the best all-weather fighters at the time. Some 30-plus were sold to the Belgian Air Force. All in all, that one was a reasonably successful effort, but they decided in 1952/1953 that they needed a supersonic aircraft. The CF-100 was subsonic.
Talks began with respect to developing a supersonic aircraft basically to thwart any supersonic bombers that might be coming from enemy countries at that time. Obviously, it was the Soviet Union that was of concern.
JA: The difference between a subsonic and a supersonic aircraft, was that at supersonic speeds, the jet was able to break the sound barrier, meaning attaining a speed of over 1,235km/h, also known as Mach 1.
Like Palmiro mentioned, A.V. Roe developed the C-102 jetliner and the CF-100 Canuck, the two-engine all-weather interceptor. The first Canuck was flown on January 19 of 1950, and over 650 were built, with Canuck fighter squadrons serving the Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF), the North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD), and the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO). In 1953, at the height of the Cold War, the RCAF commissioned Avro to design a new plane: a supersonic jet that could engage and destroy enemy interceptors before they reached their targets in North America. We asked Palmiro to give us more details on the CF-105 Avro Arrow, its possible uses and technical capabilities.
PC: The Avro Arrow was basically a supersonic interceptor, meaning that its purpose was to prevent enemy bombers from coming across the North Pole over Canada to bomb either southern portions of Canada or the United States.
It was designed to fly at a Mach 2 speed, which is twice the speed of sound—extremely fast at the time—and reach altitudes of 60,000 feet or thereabouts to prevent these enemy bombers from coming in. That's basically what the Arrow was. It was not a multi-role fighter like, say, the CF-18 Hornet. Its mission was to fly up, intercept, and whatever. They were also looking at using the Arrow for surveillance purposes because they could fit it for that mission.
Obviously, in peacetime, it would be used to prevent intrusions of our airspace, whether accidental or on purpose, from whomever. The fact that you had a pilot in there, he could make human judgment as to what this intrusion aircraft was all about, as opposed to, say, missiles that, once you fire them, that's too late. There were a number of other possible uses for the Arrow. They were looking at a version to take it to Mach 2.5.
It wasn't a question of power in the engines. It was more a question of reworking, apparently, the inlets for the engines and adding some heat resistant materials in certain areas. Because the biggest limiting factor in speed at the time was the heat of friction. You're going so fast that your metals will warp and melt and whatever. At Mach 2, no problem; at Mach 2.5, [they] probably would have needed some additional work in that area, but they knew that. That's actually all written in some of the records, that were under consideration.
They were also looking at a possible Mach 3 version, even faster, one of which looks very similar to the SR-71 Blackbird. That's probably the fastest aircraft in the world. Still is today. It came out in the mid-sixties, '63/'64, thereabouts. Again, that one was primarily for surveillance purposes. There were a number of possibilities. The other thing, of course: had the Arrow continued and we had a military design and development industry, they could have gotten into multi-role fighter design if, in fact, that was something that they might require. There were a number of different possibilities there.
[Audio clip from
Supersonic Sentinel]
“Supersonic aircraft are virtually flying pressure vessels, and as such, the complete aircraft structure is subject to wide variations of pressure. This fact greatly influenced the design of the structure. The effect of aerodynamic heating at supersonic speeds has also been an important factor in the design of the aircraft. Although the extent of this heating is not so great as to make it impossible to use aluminum alloys, new alloys were used where practicable to improve the performance and safety of the aircraft…”
JA: The CF-105 Arrow had “technically advanced features,” such as the striking high delta wing, tail-less configuration, as well as other leading-edge aerodynamic features. The delta wing design helped with supersonic performance and helped [with] providing ample lift at very high altitudes. It also provided the aircraft with plenty of surface area for more fuel, which on the Avro, as with most aircraft, is stored in the wings. To see images of the Arrow as we continue talking with Palmiro, head over to
LAC's Flickr page. There you'll find photos of the Arrow, as well as technical drawings and blueprints from our collection. You can access the link in the “Related resources” on LAC's podcast page for this episode.
Next, we asked Mr. Campagna: When was the first Arrow flown, and was it a success?
PC: The Arrow, the first flight was, I believe, in March of 1958. It was a tremendous success; in fact, beyond expectations. It flew very well. All subsequent flight tests after that went very well. They did have some problems. In one of the flights, the wheels actually exploded on landing. I think the reason was that the pilot, I think it was Janusz Żurakowski at the time, brought it in too quickly and it was a bit of a harder landing perhaps.
Subsequent to that, there was another landing accident where the wheel on one side failed to extend properly and the Arrow skidded to a halt. Again, it was a problem that was quickly fixed. During one of Żurakowski's flights, just as he was taking off to go and to climb, the Arrow suddenly dipped and he was able to stabilize it and get it back.
What had happened there was some control switch had been inadvertently connected backwards. Again, these were small things that… one would have expected greater problems than that, given that this was the first time that we had designed a supersonic aircraft and yet everything went well. I think it was a testament to the way that everything was tested prior to the actual first flights.
JA: The test pilot that Palmiro mentioned was Janusz (Jan) Żurakowski. The first Canadian to break the sound barrier, Żurakowski was Avro's chief development test pilot. On March 25, 1958, he made the maiden flight of the first Arrow, called RL-201. He ended up flying most of the Arrows that were built and racked up more than 23 hours in the air with them.
Palmiro, how many Arrows were built and eventually flown?
PC: Five aircraft were built, five were flown. I think the total, between the five of them, in terms of hours in the air was only in the order of 77 or something like that; 77 hours. Not a lot of time in the air. Obviously, there was a lot more to do. The sixth Arrow, number 206, would have been the first one to fly with the Iroquois engines.
I should backtrack a touch. The five that flew had the Pratt & Whitney J75 engine installed. This was an engine that was proven. The reason they wanted it in the air in those first five was because they wanted a proven engine in an unproven airframe to minimize risks of accident and what have you. But it was underpowered for the Arrow. Yet, even with this underpowered engine, they were still flying it at incredible speeds and whatnot.
The 206 with the Iroquois [engine] never did fly. The axe came down before they had a chance to really finish building it and then give it the taxi trials and whatnot. When I say finished building it, what I mean there—I've published one document that talks about the status of the aircraft when they were supposed to be disassembled and destroyed and whatnot. It talks about the first five [Arrows] and then it says “the partially assembled 206.” What's meant there—and I only found this out in another document that I came across, of course, after the book was published, unfortunately—was that the 206 was actually sitting there. They were waiting for the second Iroquois engine to be installed, actually to be delivered, to the company. It was a matter of days before that delivery when the axe came down. If that [hadn't happened], the engine would have shown up, they would have installed it, done their static tests, ground test and whatnot, and then moved on to taxi trials and then eventual[ly] [the] first flight.
JA: Here's a quote from then-Prime Minister John Diefenbaker in 1958, taken from A.V. Roe documents held at LAC.
"The Arrow aircraft and the Iroquois engine appear now to be likely to be better than any alternative expected to be ready by 1961. The Arrow supersonic plane has already thrilled us with its performance, its promise, and its proof of ability in design and technology…"
The Avro Arrow seemed to be a very successful supersonic airplane. As Palmiro says in his book, “It represented the state of the art in aeronautical technology in engine, airframe and flight control designs. It was extremely advanced for its time.”
Bill Gunston, British aviation expert and editor of
Flight magazine in the fifties, had this to say about the Canadian-built Arrow.
“In its planning, design and flight-test program, this fighter, in almost every way the most advanced of all the fighters of the 1950s, was as impressive, and successful, as any aircraft in history.”
Was there any interest from other countries in purchasing the Arrow? Palmiro tells us.
PC: This is the interesting thing. Janusz Żurakowski, the pilot, when I had a chance to speak with him many years ago, I asked him that question. He basically said that back then, you really had to have the aircraft in service in your own country for a few years to demonstrate its capabilities, et cetera, before going forward to try and sell it.
In a sense that almost harkens back to the jetliner a bit because they had it on these demonstration runs and whatnot and people were able to see it and pilots were able to fly it, et cetera. That never happened with the Arrow. They never got that chance. So it's hard to say whether or not some other country would have been interested. I know Britain kept advising Canada to continue building the Arrow, perhaps they might have been interested.
The Norwegians, maybe, if they had a need for interceptors as well. On the other side of it, the engine, the Iroquois engine, France was actually interested in the Iroquois. They wanted to get a number of prototypes to test in their Mirage series of jet military aircraft. What happened there was when they started hearing rumours that the whole project might be cancelled, and there were a lot of those circulating at the time, they shut down that interest and so the Iroquois never made it.
Again, had the cancellation not happened, they would have gotten Iroquois. Who knows, they might have purchased it outright because the Iroquois was a highly advanced state-of-the-art jet engine. That would have provided a lot of revenue and whatnot if it had been allowed to go, but we didn't get there.
JA: It's time we introduced our next two guests. They are Archival Assistant Kyle Huth and Archivist Andrew Elliott, two LAC employees and self-proclaimed Avro Arrow enthusiasts. They'll be able to give us more details on the documents and collection material we have on the Avro Arrow here at LAC.
First up, to cover some of the items we have on the government side of things, is Kyle Huth.
Kyle Huth (KH): We have a variety of textual records relating to the Arrow from different departments: the Department of National Defence, the Department of Defence Procurement, there's stuff from the Department of Secretary of State, and from Finance. A lot of it is correspondence between Avro and other suppliers and the Government of Canada.
There's a lot of interesting records in there when it comes down to the development and also looking at the costing of the aircraft, showing back as far as 1955 and '57. There's also, towards the time of the cancellation, we have documentation which relates to plans for the Arrow—what they were going to do with the five completed Arrows. [They planned] to see, "Okay, can we give them to the United Kingdom? Can we keep them? Does the National Research Council want to keep them for high-speed test aircraft?"
Those records are all available to the public in our collection. Now we have stuff that has been still restricted—which is Code 32 material—that can be accessed by the public if they do an ATIP request (or an access to information request).
JA: More information on
how to make a formal request under the
Access to Information Act can be found on our website.
Here's Andrew Elliott.
Andrew Elliott (AE): On the private side, we now do have the William Kuzyk fonds and also the Ralph Waechter fonds. These are important because, up until recently, we did not have the records of people who worked for the company at Library and Archives Canada.
JA: The two private collections that Andrew mentions are the Ralph Waechter and William Kuzyk fonds. These are the private collections of two employees at A.V. Roe Canada. Both studied aeronautical engineering at the University of Toronto, graduating in the late forties, and got jobs with the company almost immediately. While at Avro, Waechter and Kuzyk were flight test engineers in the Flight Test Research Department. Here, their principal activity was data collection. Many of their reports dealt with the technical challenges of high-speed flight and the related phenomena that can occur. Part of what we have from them here at LAC is considerable data and graphs indicating performance and effects—particularly in relation to air speed and high-speed performance—on the C 102 Jetliner, the CF 100 Canuck and the Arrow. There are textual records, photographic material, technical drawings, cartographic material and publications relating to this scientific research.
When the plant closed in 1959, Waechter and Kuzyk, like many other employees, found jobs in aeronautical engineering companies in the United States, where they would stay through the 1960s.
AE: What's also interesting with regards to the Ralph Waechter collection, it has employee newsletters going from the late '40s right through the '50s, so documenting for employees really what was going on at the plant in Malton, not only just for the Arrow but also for the CF-100 and also, the original jetliner as well.
KH: I can add to that. There's also the John D. Harbon fonds. He was a journalist who was working on a book about the Arrow. The book never actually got published. Because of him, we have a number of photographs of the Arrow from the Avro company but, as well, photographs of Soviet aircraft that would have been the adversary of the Arrow had it gone operational.
JA: Check out the related links section on the podcast page for this episode to learn more about what we have here at Library and Archives Canada on the Avro Arrow. There are links to the individual fonds we have mentioned, plus blog articles written by Andrew and Kyle, and also a selection of links to the many documents on the Arrow we hold here at LAC.
We asked Andrew how LAC came to acquire this material from the Waechter and Kuzyk families.
AE: In the case of William Kuzyk, his nephew offered material back in 2015, I think it was initially. The initial offer was then, there has been a subsequent accrual of material because he found material in his uncle's house [now] that he's going through his uncle's house. His uncle William Kuzyk died back in 1990, so these have been hanging around the house for a while.
Interestingly, David Waechter, Ralph Waechter's son, not that long after—probably 2016—made an offer of his father's records. His father died more recently, in 2012. David Waechter was also writing a book about his father's career. He uses some of the material for this book, called Flight Test: The Avro Arrow and a Career in Aeronautical Engineering.That book came out just slightly before we acquired the material here at LAC.
[Audio clip from
Supersonic Sentinel]
“With its advanced electronic system and guided missiles, this supersonic sentinel is designed to guard the Arctic approaches to the Western Hemisphere. The success of the Avro Arrow marks a new chapter in the history of the Canadian aviation industry and a new contribution to western defence.”
JA: Coming up in part two…
PC: This is where things get interesting and where the [National] Archives play a major role, at least in my view…
Recording of Prime Minister John Diefenbaker: “I knew the 10,000 men and women would be out of work ultimately by this decision. I knew that a great industry that had been established would be weakened, but it was right to end it.”
PC: When you look at the documents, the archival record from both Canada and the United States, you will see, for lack of a better term, American fingerprints all over the place.
PC: Here we are, not long after we’ve killed the Arrow, all of a sudden airplanes are important again and we need airplanes. Had they waited and gotten this information, I’m convinced we would have Arrows flying around.
PC: This is incredible. The fact that the prime minister was given incorrect information really makes you wonder about the intelligence that's going on here…
JA: Stay tuned for part two of this episode, where we start the process of decoding the mystery of why the Avro Arrow project was ultimately cancelled. What were the reasons given? What sort of impact did the cancellation have on industry in Canada? And was abandoning the program the right decision? Palmiro Campagna returns to answer some of these questions, and to put to rest some of the persistent rumours that continue to swirl around the aircraft and the cancellation.
If you'd like to learn more about the Avro Arrow at Library and Archives Canada, please visit us online at
bac-lac.gc.ca/podcasts. On the episode page for this podcast, you will find a number of links related to the Arrow, including our
Flickr album, which highlights a selection of photos from our collection.
Thank you for being with us. I'm Josée Arnold, your host. You've been listening to "Discover Library and Archives Canada—where Canadian history, literature and culture await you." A special thank you to our guests today, Palmiro Campagna, Kyle Huth and Andrew Elliott. Special thanks also to Isabel Larocque for her contributions to this episode. All music in this episode by Blue Dot Sessions.
This episode was produced and engineered by David Knox.
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Credits:
[Free Flight Model Test Report: 1st Edition], 1953/1958?
Avro Aircraft Limited
A.V. Roe Canada fonds/ISN 312696
Supersonic Sentinel: The Story of the Avro Arrow, 1958
Avro Aircraft Limited
Wilfred Austin Curtis fonds/ISN 154953